This interview is part of a series of seven interviews on Fuori! (including this one, as well as those with Angelo Pezzana, founder of Fuori!, Maurizio Gelatti, Vice President of the Fondazione Angelo Pezzana-Fuori!, Maurizio Cagliuso, Archivist and Librarian of the Fondazione Angelo Pezzana-Fuori!, and the activists of Fuori!, Enzo Cucco, Vera Fraboni and Riccardo Rosso). These interviews were collected during summer 2024 thanks to a Scholarship Catalyst Program grant from Texas Tech University (Office of the President, Office of the Provost, Office of the Vice President for Research) and are to be considered as dedicated to Angelo Pezzana.
Anna Cuculo is known as an actress, director, choreographer, dancer, writer, founder of the Aquilegia Blu festival, and author of the novels Il suono di una sola mano (1989) and Via Barbaroux (2004). Her debut took place at the age of nine as a classical dancer in Aida in Turin and she then worked with Sara Acquarone, Roberto Fascilla, Carla Fracci, Loredana Furno, Aldo Masella, Marcella Otinelli, Zarko Prebil, Enrico Sportiello, Bruno Telloli, Alberto Testa, and at the Arena of Verona, the Teatro Regio in Turin, the Teatro Petruzzelli in Bari and on various tours in national opera houses. As far as her involvement in modern and contemporary dance is concerned, after auditioning at the Centro RAI in Turin with Susanna Egri, she danced for Franco Estill, Renato Greco, Don Lurio, Floria Torrigiani, Tony Ventura and other choreographers. Among the film directors, she worked with Antonello Falqui, Pier Francesco Pingitore and Enzo Trapani.
In 1975, she made her debut as an actress at the Teatro Stabile in Turin with Aldo Trionfo, then continued with Tino Buazzelli, Dario Fo, Mario Missiroli, Franco Passatore; she also worked for RAI-TV. With Franco Passatore she collaborated as a faculty member at the Teatro Stabile school in Turin, maintaining her activity as TV dancer, especially in Milan. She then embarked on a career as a choreographer and formed the cabaret group Il pazzo e il pendolo in 1979, with Oliviero Corbetta, Michele Di Mauro, Germana Pasquero and Beppe Tosco, that will perform for four years throughout Italy. She has been a guest at important festivals, including Santarcangelo di Romagna and Grinzane Cavour. In 1984, she created Culture Dance (culture – bodybuilding – dance), the Anna Cuculo Group was born, with theater and dance shows that took place for many years. Since 1992 she has been involved in directing and “theater of word.” She has collaborated with RAI-TV, private networks and Teatri Stabili. She hosted the Sparati Alfredo program on TorinoWebTV (https://torinowebtv.it/sparati-alfredo-a-tamburo-battente/).
She was involved in the magazine Fuori! in the early ‘70s and participated in the LGBTQIA+ movement as an activist in her work within the theater and with Fuori! (http://www.annacuculogroup.com/anna-cuculo.html and https://artistsunitedforanimals.org/anna-cuculo.html).
Thank you, Anna, for this interview. As the first question, I would like to ask you about the presence of women in Fuori! from the founding of the movement and the magazine. There was a monographic issue of Fuori! Donna by Stefania Sala in 1974, and I would like to ask how you have seen that the participation of feminist groups and/or feminist women in the movement and the magazine has evolved.
In ‘70-‘71 I used to hang out with a group of feminist women from Turin with whom I got along, fairly well but not completely, not entirely, because they still seemed to me to be tied to old stereotypes, as for instance having tea together, saying that you should not be subservient to men, and so on.
At that time, I was a regular at Angelo Pezzana’s bookstore, Hellas – it was not called Luxemburg yet – and I knew Angelo well. We would chat and spend time together. When Angelo had the brilliant idea of founding this association – this is what it was at first – I rushed in because I was not entirely comfortable with the feminist group.
After that, I tried to tie one thing to the other, that is, to invite feminists who were interested in the Fuori! association and vice versa, not so much because I did not feel that I was offering anything important; I do not make this into an anti-feminist discourse, I make it into a personal discourse. There were very few women who joined the Fuori! association in ‘71 because many did not dare in the first place. I say some trite things, but it must be remembered that in those years in Italy, in Turin, you could not even go hand in hand with your friend, partner, girlfriend, let’s call her what you want. You were still being singled out. Forget about the relationship with mothers, with families, terrifying, difficult, almost impossible, sometimes impossible. There was a lot of work to be done, real work.
What does this mean? To me even today doing real work means expressing ideas as objectively as possible, therefore not just pushing your own idea because then it cements itself, it becomes something that does not work anymore: instead, it means to try to be objective and to accept your neighbor, your neighbor as yourself, to accept them however they may be, and therefore striving for a freedom of life and expression that does not harm others but instead should be freedom of thought, ideology and action. This is what I sought within Fuori!, despite the problems: we have forgotten them today, but I remember very well that as I was a revolutionary student at the time, the action itself was nice, it was a moment full of vitality; like marching with the Communist Party, which I was fine with, but it was alongside men who did not even support abortion, to give an example, or who viewed you strangely if you were gay, or invited you to do who knows what. Well, this was not right; however, I always tried to advocate for freedom for myself and for everyone. This was the beginning: meetings at Fuori! were primarily attended by men, with very few women, then there were already a few transsexuals or those who were on their way in the process; not feminists, because you just could not communicate effectively.
The first issue of Fuori! Donna (a publication that did not last long) was led by Stefania Sala (this was not even her real name: it was a pseudonym because she was a schoolteacher. She could not sign her real name due to the risk of being thrown out, rudely speaking), and it was interesting. I recently revisited her daisy-flower strips that were drawn at that time.
After the early years of activism in ‘71-‘72, I became deeply involved in theater and was constantly touring, so I did not physically attend meetings as much as before. However, I have almost all the issues of Fuori!, so the passion and commitment remained strong. However, I must say that those were particularly good years for theater because with the Teatro Stabile di Torino we would go on tour for six to eight months – now, three weeks is considered a lot; so, I was often away. Moreover, unlike what I said before, in the difficulties that especially a gay, bisexual woman felt towards society, I was favored because in the theater this is not a problem. In the theater, since ever, working with people older than me, of all genders, preferences, it has always been like being part of a family. In the theater you cannot be anything but mentally free because otherwise you cannot do this work, you could not do it.
From a very young age, I realized that I was interested in some people, whether they were women or men. I never had this problem. We are talking about youthful romantic loves that might be easier, more frequent, perhaps not very deep. As the years go by, things change, but my romantic interests were either here or there, it did not matter to me. I could fall in love with a girl or a boy, older or younger than me. What mattered to me was the person, with what was in the mind, soul, psyche, and everything that is part of a person. So, I never had the issue that some others I know faced, of saying, “Now, this is a man, this is a woman.” I was not interested. Even in those few pieces that I wrote for the magazine Fuori!: I would like to be a hermaphrodite, I would like that there was no problem because the problem belonged to others, it was not mine.
It bothered me that this issue existed in the first place, so I had romantic relationships with both women and men; this was also important, and I must say, it has favored me, because I always had important relationships where the person could be who they were, simply a person. I never made it about sexuality. Then, like everyone, I think, there are moments when you feel more inclined toward the feminine. For me, it was never a problem. Here again, I must repeat that I was favored to come from a ballet background, where you really cannot have these problems because the male or female dancers are just bodies, you are not seeing either a male or a female. And so that also favored me. However, over the years, I say to myself, was it the environment that favored me or was it me favoring the environment? In my opinion, I was born already with this ideology in my head, and I had both female and male romantic loves.
What was the role of the magazine and the Fuori! movement and particularly of Fuori! Donna? How did it impact an entire generation?
It was very important for women to be in the association Fuori! because unlike the world of gay men who all met, found each other, as Angelo Pezzana often reminds us, even cruising in cinemas, women always had a different spirit. It never happened to me to go looking for someone: sometimes in the disco where you danced, there were the discos labeled as gay, that then was also a discrimination to call them gay discos. But you would find each other and maybe meet.
But women had much more difficulties. The magazine Fuori! in particular was a panacea, something very important, because many women began to wake up, women of all ages, not only the girls, the young ones, even women who may have suffered for years of having to keep a condition hidden, a sexual situation, and instead gradually began to understand that you could, you had to accept, you had to meet and know, with everything always in favor of freedom, and this is my continuously what I aspire to. Freedom in every sense, always without harming others. The magazine Fuori! was quite relevant, and I am talking about Italy; here it was just like this.
Who are the women activists that you want to remember and what were their contributions?
Angelo Pezzana always talked a lot about the other women activists, however I do not know if I can name names, honestly, because I also had some relationships. I do not dare to name names because at that time not all of them were overt. I can remember Margaret Jorino Leist, because she used her name, being able to afford to sign it; the others, less so.
I remember that there was Mariasilvia Spolato.
Yes, she could afford to use her name; she was an important activist, she also wrote a few things, there was coverage about her in magazines. Unfortunately, she is no longer with us.
It seems to me that gay men were the most organized within LGBTQIA+ activism.
This is true, because there were so many of them, because they were more combative, because they could afford it. Again, for women, to this day I still have some not-so-good memories, because if you were being courted by a man and you said, “No, look, there is no need for this because right now I have a girlfriend,” the response was, “But then it is okay with both of you.” It is okay, both of us, if I decide it, not if you say so. Exhausting. This was an actual difficulty. Then, I mean, as of today women are still the ones who are paid less at work and hold fewer prominent positions; this issue is still not fully resolved.
I wanted to ask you how you participated to Fuori! over the years. For example, you have written in the magazine, signing your name, because I have read some of your pieces. What are the things that you liked and want to remember?
I wrote for the magazine whenever I had the chance. I contributed a couple of poems and other notes. I remember writing a very specific piece because at that time I was angry with “veiled” gay men as they did not “have to” appear, because they occupied important positions in politics or even elsewhere. And I disliked them very much. I wrote a very heavy article against the “veiled queers,” I still remember it, that was aimed particularly at some, and closed with, “But how many of you are there? There are so many of you.” I also understand their difficulty to come out, however, a little more courage, maybe; we women had it and in short so could they.
And then what did I do? I talked to people a lot. I think that it is very important: to talk to people, not to those who already agree with you because they think like you, they are free-minded people, but to those who do not think like this. You do not necessarily have to convince anybody to open their mind, those who are still prisoners – still today how many people are prisoners of patterns that should not exist. This is something that I have always done and continue to do. If, however, this dialogue is helpful in opening a mind, my goal has been reached.
Your career path is in the arts, show business and creativity. You are an actress, director and choreographer. What are the milestones of your work in the performing arts?
Briefly, I started as a terpsichorean, that is a beautiful term, but many people do not know it. Terpsichorean, ballet dancer. When I first went to get my ID, they asked me, “What do you do? Are you a student?”; I said, “No, I am terpsichorean.” “Huh?” There was no such term, they went and looked it up on a list, so I added, “If you want, you can put ballet dancer, but it is not the same thing.”
My background is ballet, which I desired with all my might, because I forced my mother to take me to lessons. It was a desire that seemed to be born with me, evidently, also because at home there was television, but we watched Studio Uno with the Kessler Twins, and we did not watch ballet. So, what did I do? I worked extensively within opera, where fortunately there is classical ballet. After performing in many productions of Aida, I went to the Arena di Verona, in short I had some good experiences, and at some point I said to myself, I want to do something different as well. Like all dancers, I went through auditions and eventually started working in television, with modern dance, let’s call it la rivista [revue], as it was called back then, and then I had a resume; therefore, with beautiful names and directors. I must mention Enzo Trapani because he was the best television director I ever met for television, along with several excellent good choreographers, like Loredana Furno in classical dance here in Turin.
Then, I tried to broaden my experiences: I was doing both classical and modern dance. After that, the years went by and I started choreographing, because from the experience you have, you also feel like inventing. Then, finally bodybuilding gyms for women opened in Turin in 1981. I eagerly joined that environment because I was intrigued by the idea of developing upper body strength, something classical dancers typically lacked. Nowadays, this is changing – just look at how muscular Roberto Bolle is; but now, however, we are talking about men and not women. So, I fused all these experiences, put them together and at a certain point I came up with something that I called “culture dance”: culture, bodybuilding, and dance. Someone once told me nicely that if I had been in America, I would have made it because in Italy, everything is a bit subdued, with all the advantages that Italy gives you over America and vice versa, we do not want to make a social-political issue.
I even fused bodybuilding training with modern even ballet, and I had a group of about 20 people, women, working on stage and incorporating holds with each other: obviously, the larger women held the smaller ones. I am small, so I was privileged in that sense. It was a wonderful experience that lasted several years. I received good reviews, but as I mentioned, everything in Italy tends to be a bit understated.
In the meanwhile, I also started acting, not wanting to miss out on anything. I had already sung in the RAI children’s choir in Turin, so my voice was already accustomed to singing. I began acting with talented directors such as Aldo Trionfo at the Teatro Stabile di Torino. My work kept expanding. At that point, I was choreographing, acting, dancing, everything. I did a lot of work with the Teatro Stabile di Torino and toured extensively. I remember notable figures, Mario Missiroli and Franco Passatore, for the entire part that had to do with students and schools. I also taught at the school of the Teatro Stabile and began writing some texts and directing. In short, it all came about as a result.
I never forgot the importance of talking to people, as I mentioned earlier. To me, theater is all about communication. Especially when I started writing and directing, I staged texts that conveyed what we have been discussing: texts that talk about freedom, freedom for all, freedom in all senses. For instance, among other things, I cannot forget a project with Guido Davico Bonino, one of the most interesting faculty members at the University of Turin, who suggested an autobiographical text by Herculine Camille Barbin, a true story about a boy born as a woman [attributed at birth] in the mid-19th century who, during puberty, transitioned from being a “hermaphrodite” [male pseudohermaphroditism] to a male [by a legal decision]. From that moment, because he was in a girls’ boarding school, trouble began. He was kicked out and did not know what to do. Those were even tougher times than what we experienced, of course. He adapted, moving to the outskirts of Paris and taking on jobs like waiting tables or something like that. But he could not withstand society’s criticism. Unfortunately, as a very young man, he put his head in the stove, the only source of heat in his slum, and died.
It was very interesting. This was a true story, and Guido Davico Bonino did me a great favor, as he directed it himself: at the end of the show, we also had, I remember, psychiatrist Pier Maria Furlan, and someone else, a psychologist, to talk about this topic. Through theater I continue to talk to people. I played Arthur Rimbaud, for example, other male characters, or so-called ambiguous characters. Last year I staged LGBTQIA+.
Every year, therefore, now for a few years since 2019, I have titled a theater review Bargigli and pregiudizi. Bargigli because I also wanted there to be some irony, other than pregiudizi, so as not to be too serious and not to bore the audience. Every year, there is a theme, and last year these were the topics within the theme. I collected well-known writings, such as Oscar Wilde’s De Profundis, written during his imprisonment, as well as texts by Virginia Woolf and her lover, among others. I then entrusted these writings to the actors, overseeing the overall direction. The last of these pièces was by Silvia De Giorgis, transgender, whom I had as a student at the theater school; at the beginning, I asked everyone to introduce themselves in a few words: she introduced herself by saying, and her speech was very nice, “I am here because I would like to curate my voice a little bit so that it becomes a little bit more feminine, because you see me, don’t you?” But someone did not understand that she was still in this middle ground; I understood perfectly, but someone was puzzled. We worked on her voice. I was very fond of this student, and although she had never studied acting before, as it was her first year, I asked her, “Would you feel comfortable writing a short version of your story and bringing it to the stage?” She did, and her performance moved the audience to tears. She did it and those who listened had tears in their eyes. She had a very heavy moment where she even considered giving up because she could not give herself an explanation and decide, so this evening was incredibly meaningful to me. However, this year as well, always with Bargigli e pregiudizi, I discuss discrimination, whatever form it takes.
Last year we also staged works by a painter from Turin: he is very good, in my opinion. His name is Lorenzo Alessandri and he was also discriminated against because he was considered the “black magician” of Turin. We are always in the ‘70s, there we go as usual. Evidently in those years there was an awakening among young people, and many important issues came to the forefront.
There is a mysticism mania in Turin.
Black.
To attribute a negative power is to recognize that there is something important in this person, otherwise there would be no recognition as a magus.
They referred to him as a “black magician.” A wonderful painter. Recently, this May, we brought the show back to Giaveno, because he was originally from Turin, but from Giaveno by adoption. So again, this year we will talk about discrimination: it seems even harder, but we always add a lot of irony. We discuss madness and what occurred before the Basaglia law in the so-called asylums, where women were often confined simply because they were seen as a disturbance to their families or husbands, nobody knows who. I am currently working on this text. I must add something that could seem unrelated but for me it was very important: around the middle of our lives, I was 30-33 years old, I remember very well, I began to approach a search, in quote marks, “spiritual.” I say in quote marks because I do not want to be misunderstood.
Perhaps I was trying to delve deeper into the human soul. I was already interested, even during my school years, in philosophy, more than other subjects. I came to understand it better around that age after reading a book by Balzac. Some might wonder, how is it possible? It is possible. Evidently, he had so much to offer in both mind and soul. From that point on, I began to view everything, not just art or theater, from a deeper perspective. I would prefer not to use other terms. I already tried with Jung, but it did not give me much satisfaction. It was not so much psychoanalysis that interested me but something even more internal. In fact, my novel Via Barbaroux has on its red cover the Ouroboros, the closing circle. So, I started with this type of studies in this direction, closely related to what I was saying before because you must go deep inside to understand and give back something useful to others and yourself, I would not call it important but useful, because, after all, we are mere ants compared to the world, the planet, and the universe. At some point, we must all realize that we need to do something useful for ourselves and others, each in our own way.
Not raising dust in the path of others is already useful. What have you done to advance this mission of usefulness, as you call it? What are the key moments?
I do not allow myself to call it a “mission,” it is simply about talking to others. I would like to do even more. I am doing what I can through my work, the theater, writing, everything that I can show with the theater. This is what is important and favorable.
It follows that the visual aspect complements words and allows you to convey your message.
Exactly.
What is your message?
Try to understand who you are and try to understand others.
Are there any authors in gender studies that you particularly like? For example, I am interested in Eve Sedgwick’s theories on male bonding, that suggest a homoerotic undertone in male friendships, using examples from English literature, like Frankenstein and Dracula. In Dracula, a group of men forms a committee to manage the effects of the vampire, that for instance include bringing out uncontrollable female sexuality. In Frankenstein, there is a homoerotic pursuit when Dr. Frankenstein chases the monster on a sled. When I teach Federico Fellini’s I Vitelloni, I refer to the five men who are friends, where the friendship seems to go in the direction of Sedgwick’s theory, and I have the impression that this is obvious to the female students (like, “I knew it”).
I find it amusing that women think, “I knew it,” but there is this habit, more among men, “pat-on-the-back”, we are together because we are good. Women as well, though. I can give practical examples. I am surrounded by coffee houses and restaurants where I live, and it was not always common to see women sitting at small tables, having coffee or an aperitif together. It was not like that before, so it seems that now women have woken up and are saying that we have decided that we are fine chatting among ourselves: it is not just casual conversation, but also talking about meaningful topics, and there are constantly tables full of women. So, maybe this was right before among men with the sentiment of supporting one another, being good together, and then deep down maybe liking one another: maybe we cannot say it, or we cannot understand it. Luckily, today women are doing this as well.
Instead, regarding literature, I am passionate about of Frances Yates and Marguerite Yourcenar: no matter what they write, they make you understand what is within the female soul, even when they talk about men.
I got to know Yates, not personally, but as a writer, thanks to Gabriele La Porta, who unfortunately left us too soon because he still had a lot to say. He introduced me to this wonderful writer. I believe that I have all her books now.
I think that it is important how you present things, how you write them, how you tell them, how you present them, because they make you understand what is inside, what is underneath and deep inside.
It is crucial how things are presented, how they are written, told, and shown, because that helps reveal what is inside, what is underneath and deep within.
Do you think women can be friends?
I definitely think so. Also, from my own experience. I have female friends, and they are real friends.
This element of friendship among women sometimes escaped me and I noticed more competition about everything.
I do not agree. This can exist, but it is much more overt among men. In fact, the issue of competition among women has been brought up by men, because women understand each other, then they also tell each other to get lost, I do not see why not, it can happen. It is an old-fashioned aspect in my opinion: men find it convenient to say, “She is jealous of this other one because she is prettier, better, or has two boyfriends.”
Have you integrated your activism with your work as a dancer, theater actress, and choreographer?
I think that it is all integrated as far as I am concerned. Since the student movement of the ‘70s came to Italy from France, I have felt like an activist, even an anarchist, so I experienced the entire student movement. For me Fuori! was logical and attached to the student movement. It was necessary as that other one. Then we also shouted, “Down with the bourgeoisie,” because of the stereotypes at the time. Of course, I would never have allowed myself to throw eggs at the premieres of the Teatro Regio, because it did not make sense. That was also done, and for many it was a logical consequence.
So, I find it right that there has been the activism of the student movement, for all the things that change in society but remain as basic points, whether there is one government or another. In short, it is right to point out what should be done in favor of everybody and not just a few people who are in power. But this is a dream that many, I hope, share: a desire for greater honesty.
Cover Image: Muscoli & rimmel, 1983
Photo Credits © Courtesy of Anna Cuculo
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